by Levee
Irish Republicans: What's Not To Like?
8:30 am in Northern Ireland: Politics by Levee
I took a hard line yesterday on the language of Republicanism, the talk of continuing struggles and so on. Chris took some offense at my position, which I still feel is justified.
Looking To The Future
Now, Chris Gaskin is an intelligent fellow. As a student of law, he is no doubt aware of some of the ridiculous laws that were created generations ago. Laws that are unrealistic and do not apply to society today.
And, if last centuries’ notions of Protestant/Unionist supremacy are subject to ridicule today, why are other historical events like the Easter Rising beyond scrutiny? They shouldn’t be. We cannot uphold principles from the past century if they do not apply to society today. These things need to be questioned.
What is the compelling reason for a United Ireland? Why should we consider it? Who will benefit from a United Ireland? What about the Unionist/Loyalist population – and people like myself who just want a normal society without the labels? What relevance does the Easter Rising have for modern life in (Northern) Ireland?
Common Ground – Social Problems
Republicanism – yes, and Loyalism – are movements which serve to separate the population by convincing their respective followers of an irredeemable gulf exists between them. But strip those people of their political identities and they are virtually the same. They suffer the same problems: education standards, unemployment, housing, teenage pregnancy, medical care, disenfranchised youth.
I’ve spent quite a bit of time on both the Falls and Shankill Roads over the years, and both are bustling, thriving working-class communities. If both of those neighbourhoods worked together to their mutual advantage, there’s no telling what they might achieve. They have so much in common.
Where are the bold politicians willing to tackle social problems on a truly equal basis? They simply don’t exist.
And that, my friends, is my problem with Republicans. And also with Loyalists. And with anybody who pushes a one-sided political agenda instead of focusing on the issues our society is crying out to resolve. They spend all their time sitting in little cliques, convincing themselves that their narrow viewpoints are correct, churning out outdated slogans (British oppression my arse – who’s paying your benefits?) and conveniently ignoring the ‘other’ culture.
Let’s face it, Northern Ireland – illegal Orange statelet or not – is not immune from 21st Century social problems. Disenfranchised youths, for example, are everywhere. On the mainland, they’re chavs. Over here, they’re spides and millies. They are not the unique by-product of disadvantaged Unionist areas, Dr. Paisley!
I don’t think a United Ireland is some kind of silver bullet solution. It won’t stop teenage pregnancies, stem the suicide rate or stop the joyriding problem. It certainly won’t ‘cure’ sectarianism.
So, which is the more pressing issue? Hooking up with the Republic and filling our wallets with Euros, or dropping the agenda and starting to tackle social problems and sectarianism?
I’m not sure thst any society has sucessfully tackled “social promlems”. I’m not totally sure if this is from a failure to diagnose the problem properly, failure to identfy effective feasible solutions, failure to identify them as such, failure to commit to the solution or filure to implement a potentially effective soluton properly.
My experience (professional and general life) leads me to suspect that we fall on the first hurdle, diagnosis of the problem.
You’re right there, Aileen. Much easier to throw money at problems. Who needs solutions?
Interesting comments Mr Levee in relation to the social problems in the North.
I actually managed to put the issue of poverty in Loyalist working communities to an Irish Senator who has taken an interest in the issue, I won’t disclose his name just yet, but I hope to hear back from him on the matter soon.
I agree that a United Ireland is not a silver bullet solution. The people need to be united more than the land mass itself.
Good point UI. I think that a lot of what we preceive to be Northern Ireland specific issues are general societal problems that are blamed on the situation here by the media and politicians.
While it may suit them to promote that viewpoint, I don’t think any real solutions are being proposed or enacted to resolve these issues.
Well said Mr Levee. Perhaps you’re a braver man
than me for staying in Norn Iron and expressing
such opinions.
I’ve never understood the importance of lines on
maps, and disagree with the spilling of blood
over them (or anything else, for that matter).
Pete
Armagh 1966-1984 (thanks Unionists/Loyalists and Nationalists/Republicans for totally polluting
and ruining my childhood)
Australia 1997-current
p.s. I’ll be home for the “12th”. I hope they put
on a good show for me, so I can finally sever
my ties.
“What is the compelling reason for a United Ireland?”
Economic development; finality that leads to
political stability; proper control over our own destiny, including all the important issues like taxation; forces both republicans and unionists to deal with social issues, and enter coalitions that will break down barriers; everyone can better express their identity in a united state rather than a divided one; better football team; RTE show a lot of programs sooner than British TV; emotional argument for Nationalists.
Why the hell should we stay?
“Why should we consider it?”
Because 40% of the voting population votes for parties that support it. And the number is growing.
“Who will benefit from a United Ireland?”
Everyone.
“What about the Unionist/Loyalist population”
I think they will benefit too, for all the reasons listed above. And I think there would be a huge conciousness about helping them become more comfortable with it, and making them feel included.
But really, I don’t want to dictate, their position and their desires would hopefully arise through discussion.
” – and people like myself who just want a normal society without the labels?”
It’s a UI. It’s endgame. It’s hard to see two the barriers don’t begin to break down from that. It might take a few generations, and I imagine Unionists will always have their own identity, but the nature of coalition government in the South almost forces it.
Plus take your pick from the reasons above.
“What relevance does the Easter Rising have for modern life in (Northern) Ireland?”
The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.
I still subscribe to those ideals, personally. And even if it wasn’t relevant, I believe their sacrifice is worthy of rememberance, and a lot of other Nationalists do. You may disagree, but respecting my views should be reaosn enough.
Kensei: Good post! I think that’s the first time I’ve ever heard such a well considered arguement in favour of a United Ireland that didn’t resort to Republican propaganda!
So much of what you say makes perfect sense, however I question whether a United Ireland would put to bed partitionist issues. I mean, isn’t there a possibility that the Unionist movement would lobby vociferously for the restoration of partition?
And while that may not be up for debate, what’s to stop Unionist ‘freedom fighters’ from using violence to make their case?
Plus, I’d be interested to hear your views on how the benefits systems differ between North and South and also the taxation for those of us who bother to go to work – on a practical level, will a UI make us better off?
“So much of what you say makes perfect sense, however I question whether a United Ireland would put to bed partitionist issues. I mean, isnt there a possibility that the Unionist movement would lobby vociferously for the restoration of partition?”
I don’t think it wold happen. I think that, yes, there would be a small movement for secession, but it would be impossible to get all of NI back. In fact, majority support in 4 counties may even be pushing it. I think that most people would want to make the best of the new situation, and would be more interested in ensuring they are protected in the new state. It would be terribly hard to reverse, and plus, would the UK take it back?
“And while that may not be up for debate, whats to stop Unionist freedom fighters from using violence to make their case?”
Nothing. But I do not believe in giving in to violence. A lot would depend on how unionist leaders react, I think.
“Plus, Id be interested to hear your views on how the benefits systems differ between North and South and also the taxation for those of us who bother to go to work – on a practical level, will a UI make us better off?”
Swings and roundabouts, really. It’s hard to make comparisons, but the Forbes “Tax Misery” index gives an idea:
http://www.forbes.com/home/global/2005/0523/024chart.html
Marginally higher personal taxes but lower National insurance. Higher VAT, but lower petrol costs etc. The key point is the low corporation tax encourages investment, and as the North has lower wages you would expect a fair bit of it come up here, particularly the Greater Belfast area. Which would hopefully bring wages up. So tax should hopefully be coming out of a bigger pie.
I believe the health care isn’t great in the South, though. But then that’s the other point – we’d have a hugely significant say if the tax rates, health policy or anything else wasn’t to our likening. Unlike now, where we are 15 votes out of 600 or something. Even the Assembly is more tinkering around the edges.
“I do not believe in giving in to violence”
what an odd comment from a United Irelander! So
what is establishment of a united Ireland if not
giving in to violence?
Oh, perhaps we’re just undoing a wrong done 85
years ago? But how far back shall we go to undo
(perceived) wrongs? If the island of Ireland is
the limit of your horizons you might get away
with it, but if you are not so insular you should
be very frightened by the precedent it would set.
The legitimate reasons for Catholic dissent in
Northern Ireland (discrimination) are now long
gone, and were perpetuated by the violence and
lack of cooperation with the government (e.g. low
recruitment of Catholics to the RUC;
discrimination on legitimate security grounds
etc.)
So why not just get on with making Northern
Ireland a peaceful and friendly place to live?
My ideal? An autonomous province in a United
Europe.
Pete
“what an odd comment from a United Irelander! So what is establishment of a united Ireland if not giving in to violence?”
What, by doing it after the violence has stopped? Strange logic there.
“Oh, perhaps were just undoing a wrong done 85 years ago? But how far back shall we go to undo perceived) wrongs? If the island of Ireland is the limit of your horizons you might get away with it, but if you are not so insular you should be very frightened by the precedent it would set.”
It would right wrongs and ones more recent than that, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is the reasons I have already listed.
And I happen to think the world might be a better place if every country was forced to account for their wrongs. It might stop a few more happening.
“The legitimate reasons for Catholic dissent in Northern Ireland (discrimination) are now long gone, and were perpetuated by the violence and lack of cooperation with the government (e.g. low recruitment of Catholics to the RUC; discrimination on legitimate security grounds etc.)”
I would say the attitude that they are long gone is entirely dangerous. We have come a long way, but there is still some distance to go in equality of symbols and people’s attitudes, among others. And I will never be comfortable living in a British State, and I will never be happy with monarhy, or having minimal say over my affairs, or having to fight tooth and nail to get a St Pats Parade or my identity recognised, or ……
Just, seriously. Go to the corner and think about how patronising that position is.
“So why not just get on with making Northern
Ireland a peaceful and friendly place to live?”
I’m Irish. I am a Nationalist. I am not about to give it up, and the suggestion is extremely patronising. NI means nothing to me.
However, we have no interest in screwing this place up as we have to live in it. It doesn’t mean that a UI still isn’t a better option.
“My ideal? An autonomous province in a United Europe.”
40% population would still want to join with the South, so we still have instability. I also think having a NI and ROI competing with each other for the same investment will result in both sides being screwed. And it doesn’t deal with the internal problems.
For many days after Kensei’s last post, the website wasn’t working, so my apologies for the delayed response.
To suggest that just because something happens “after the violence has stopped” (itself an arguable statement, but I’ll let it ride) means it was not influenced by the violence, and that without violence this point would have been reached anyway, is rather silly and simplistic.
If Kensei wants to live in a world where “every country was forced to account for their wrongs”, no matter how far back in history, then we’re going to be very busy making everyone make amends for the transgressions of their ancestors. But Kensei, think of it this way – do you really want my descendants blaming your descendants for your actions, and demanding recompense? Is that going to make the world a better place?
Your statements “Im Irish. I am a Nationalist. I am not about to give it up…” are very revealing, because they suggest intransigence, and nothing else. If you feel patronised by someone asking you to make decisions with your brain rather than acting on emotion, then I am sorry for you. It was the opposite of patronising – it seems it was expecting too much from you.
How to make your intransigence fit with the intransigence of unionists/loyalists, luckily is someone else’s problem and not mine, as I live as far away as I could get.
Peter (recently returned to Oz from Northern Ireland, a trip which didn’t change my opinions one iota)